Ask OAUG Panel

Thursday, April 26

OAUG Spring 2001 Conference

 

Panelists: Jeremy Young (OAUG President), John Schindler (OAUG Vice President), Karen Brownfield, Donna Rosentrater, Jeannie Dobney, Ray Payne. Moderated by Nancy Lane.

 

Q: This is my first conference, and I’ve heard people talking about Oracle not being here. Why aren’t they here?

A: Jeremy Young: Some people have seen this current situation unfolding. For the benefit of others who haven’t, I’ll briefly run through a summary of how we arrived here.

 

In February 2000, the OAUG board met at Oracle at one of our regular meetings. At that time, Oracle proposed a change to the existing conference model. Very briefly, they proposed one North American conference per year, managed and controlled by Oracle. OAUG would select the presentations for the education track, and OAUG would cease its North American conferences. As a quid pro quo, Oracle would provide OAUG with membership leads to increase membership.

 

We felt that this was a fundamental change. It impacted our independence and our financial model. So we felt the need to survey members, and we did so a few months later. The results were that the membership rejected quite strongly the proposal from Oracle and supported that we should continue with an independent model.

 

Since then, we’ve met with Oracle and had ongoing discussions to resolve the situation. We agree that it’s not an ideal situation to have so many conferences. You want educational experiences, but you’re also interested in hearing Oracle and its directions. To be honest, there has been limited progress. At one point, Oracle commented that they were busy with AppsWorld. They didn’t have the bandwidth for these details. We know how busy you can get. My take on that would be that they wanted to hold an AppsWorld and see how it went before we got into detailed discussions.

 

They reduced support for our Fall Hawaii conference and totally discontinued the support that they used to provide (such as the HODA and education sessions) for this conference. We’ve sought other suppliers to provide these areas.

 

Since AppsWorld, we’ve had more discussions, and two or three of us are flying to Redwood Shores next week to sit down and talk in hopes of resolving this issue. We want to find a mutually beneficial solution that provides our members with what they need (networking and education) but also gives Oracle what they need in terms in reaching a wider audience.

 

Q: What is OAUG doing to overcome the loss of financial subsidy from Oracle?

A: John Schindler: We receive no subsidy from Oracle at all. OAUG is a self-funding organization. We get our funding primarily from dues and from North American conferences. As we change the conference model, we might change the funding model and how we go forward. Our independence and support is all by the user community.

 

Q: I was upset by last spring’s decision by the OAUG Board to remain independent. I felt that the users of Oracle and members of OAUG were left out of a very important decision.

A: Jeremy: It was an important decision, fundamentally affecting how we operate and what we try to achieve with education, networking, and advocacy. As a result, we did actually hold a survey and sent it to all OAUG members (not just key contacts). We had a very high response rate of 70%, which we were very pleased with. Of that, about 85% rejected the Oracle proposal. I can only assume that this questioner happened not to get the survey. We can’t survey everyone in OAUG community, because we can’t know who they all are. I certainly feel that we were very concerned that with an important decision to make, that we have input. We certainly went out and got our members’ views, and they were clear.

 

Q: I’ve heard that OAUG’s North American conferences are run to make a profit to subsidize the conferences in Europe and Asia Pacific. Is this true?

A: Ray Payne: No, it’s not true. The conferences are all based on a break-even model. OAUG is a non-profit organization. The only thing we try to do with budgets is to make the conferences self-sufficient. Having been instrumental in the setup of the first Asia Pacific conference, I can tell you that the Asia Pacific conference model was intended to be self-supporting. We strive for that for all conferences.

 

Karen Gilbert: For the past three years, I’ve been the chair of the committee that oversees that process. OAUG policy is that if we move into a new area, we might incur extra costs the first time around, just like any start-up business. Each area must be self-supporting within two years. Europe was self-supporting from day one. Asia Pacific broke even with their first conference. The most recent European and Asia Pacific conferences operated at a loss, mainly because we got hit by surprise by Oracle’s decision last February. When Oracle made their AppsWorld decision, they said it was only for North America. They told us that they would not hold an event in Europe and Asia Pacific, and indeed, they would continue to support the European and Asia Pacific OAUG events. Based on that, we continued with a conference model for expected attendance with Oracle support. Unfortunately, Oracle reversed that decision; in November, they announced a European AppsWorld for February, just a few weeks before our event in March. It did hurt attendance. They did not participate in Asia Pacific except for people who lived there in Brisbane.

 

Historically, if we can project conference attendance, we can turn a profit with as little as 250 people. All our conference models are expected to be self-funding. As a non-profit, we don’t want to spend your money paying taxes on profits.

 

Q: I was unable to get into an education session because they were so busy. What are you doing to resolve this issue?

A: Donna Rosentrater: We’ve never had this problem. In the past, we had one or two tracks, and we expanded that to three. We’ve been putting together some repeat sessions and some room changes. In San Diego, we’ll add a fourth track for more repeat sessions. Please thank the people who provide the training; they’re all volunteers.

 

Q: Why did the OAUG not accept the proposal of an Oracle Spring event and an OAUG Fall event?

A: Jeremy Young: There was never a proposal that Oracle should manage a spring conference and OAUG would have a fall event. Their proposal was always that they should have a single event that they managed and ran and for which we provided educational input, and that was it for the year. The reason such a proposal wasn’t accepted was because there was no such proposal.

 

Q: In my opinion, the OAUG conference is worthwhile without Oracle here, however, at a reduced level. I realize from years of working closely with Oracle the type of hardball negotiating tactics that they seem to consider standard practice, so getting them here without giving away independence is really a difficult balance. What would make them change their mind?

A: Jeremy Young: Certainly I think we produce a worthwhile conference without Oracle. We’re focusing on education and networking. I’m pleased that a number of people in the user community have stepped up to fill the gaps. However, I entirely agree with you. I would much rather have Oracle here. There are things that they contribute and that you want.

 

In terms of negotiating with Oracle, we’re trying to reach a position which is in the interest of people who want to attend conferences that provides them with value for money. You don’t want too many different conferences to get all the different elements. But we do want to stay committed to education and networking and a user focus. We also want to maintain independence. Our conferences are important to us for that, because we’re not-for-profit. We don’t make a big profit out of the conferences. But it does contribute to our financial model and enables us to provide the website and other communications that keep you informed and connected. What I would hope is that if we’re willing to make reasonable compromises, Oracle will not want to do any hardball negotiating to the detriment of its customers. We truly believe that the kind of independent advocacy that we undertake makes Oracle stronger in the long run. We’ve all invested a lot of money in it, we all use it to run our business, and we want it to succeed. I would hope that common sense prevails. There must be some compromise solution, a way of collaborating in the best interest of everyone. I hope that’s as apparent to Oracle as it is to me.

 

As to what would make them change their mind—all of you should tell your sales reps or e-mail the senior people at Oracle. They should see that there really is a lot of feeling amongst all of the user community that you want them to be reasonable, and that the OAUG board will be reasonable. There must be some common ground. Give the feedback to Oracle so they know how you feel. In the end, no company can afford to ignore the voice of its customers.

 

Q: In Jeremy’s opening speech, the relationship with Oracle sounded quite amicable, but at the conference, I have been hearing undertones that this is not quite the case. What is really going on?

A: Jeremy Young: Someone suggested that perhaps my English sense of understatement doesn’t bring out how exciting life can really be. Clearly, we’re still talking to Oracle and meeting with them next week. I have regular discussions with various people on this topic. Yes, it’s amicable. If it was all going wonderfully well, then Oracle would be here, and we wouldn’t have this issue. We will continue to represent what we believe in. We’ll try to find some common ground with Oracle. It’s the only sensible thing to do. Obviously, there are some issues we’re having, and we have to resolve them. There’s no shouting going on.

 

Nancy Lane: As a long-time participant in OAUG, there are always rough patches in a relationship between an independent group and its supplier. This is just a rough patch.

 

Q: I understand that in the U.S., the market is large enough to support two separate conferences. Has the OAUG considered partnering in the smaller markets, such as Europe and Asia Pacific?

A: Karen Gilbert: Yes, we’ve considered it. When Oracle first informed us about AppsWorld, they stated that they would not be doing an event in Europe and Asia Pacific. Even as late as January of this year when we met Oracle, they still said they would have no event in Asia Pacific. That decision on Asia Pacific was reversed in February. We have offered to sit down with them and collaborate with a joint conference in Europe. (For Asia Pacific, this meeting next Monday will be our first opportunity to talk to them about it since they made the announcement.) So far, perhaps because of AppsWorld, they have declined to sit down with us and work with us. They’ve said they were too busy. We want to reopen these talks on Monday.

 

Jeremy Young: We suggested that maybe we should use Europe to practice and work out how a collaborative model would work, so we could understand better how it would work in a more limited environment. In the end, Oracle declined this offer.

 

Karen Gilbert: Again, we volunteered to fly out to Redwood Shores to discuss the details, and at the end of the conversation, they said they didn’t want to continue the discussions.

 

Q: How is the OAUG addressing the 11i quality issue with Oracle? 

A: Karen Gilbert: There are a lot of forums, not just with OAUG but also other groups, to work with Oracle to address quality issues. SIGs and SIG leaders have quite extensive contacts with Oracle. The Customer Support Council meets with Oracle Support to resolve issues. Enhancement chairs have been working to get more functionality into the product. Sessions like Ask Oracle in Hawaii where these questions came up obviously has some effect. We all hear about patches for 11i. Each point release is getting a little better. Every call into Support helps. Every time you raise an issue to a duty manager, it helps.

 

OAUG members are Oracle’s customers. We went out in January to Redwood Shores and met with Oracle (Ron Wohl, Joel Summers, Steve Miranda, and others), so they’re very aware of the issues. They also know if they wish to continue to sell the product, it has to get better.

 

Jeremy Young: We all made a big investment in Oracle Applications. At DHL, we’ve been running it since 1993. I remember back in 1994, Release 10.3 had big issues. From my point of view, I would rather not have those issues. No software is bug free. I think the most important thing is that the supplier remains responsive. When they get feedback (like they did with 10.3), they respond. DHL is moving to 11i; we’ve had a lot of very responsive support from Oracle developers on our issues. As long as they remain responsive to customers and listen to us and fix it, in the long term, we’ll all be fine. I think that at any particular point when you’re having issues, it’s tough. In the long term, it’s most important that they remain responsive. We’ll try and get back to the position where we’re moving forward when we meet with them next week.

 

Q: What can we do to help?

A: John Schindler: Communicate this feedback back to Oracle. We really haven’t leveraged the membership and asked them to send feedback to Ron Wohl, Mark Barrenechea, Joel Summers, and others. You’re their customers. OAUG is their largest group of customers. Your message back to them will help us moving forward.

 

Karen Brownfield: When you attend local geographic and special interest group meetings, if there’s an Oracle person there, talk to him. Let them know you want to see them here at conferences. You’re their customers, and it is a partnership. Oracle has been successful because they cared about their customers. This is why you bought Oracle, and they need to be reminded of this.

 

Nancy Lane: When you take an Oracle training class, there’s a place to provide feedback and comments. Put on there, “Where were you guys?” You can also provide feedback to your contacts with Oracle Consulting and Oracle implementation partners (such as KMPG and Andersen). These partners have formal relationships with Oracle. If you let them know, they’ll let Oracle know.

 

Q: Not too many customers have a direct line into development. Does Oracle really feel our pain? In your conversations with them, do you get the feeling that their not being here is them being afraid to come here? Do you have plans to ask them to extend 10.7 desupport? Lots of people here want that extension--not only because of the quality of 11i, but also because of the economy. Customers can’t go forward with such a buggy product.

A: Jeremy Young: We’re relaying to Oracle the pain that customers are feeling with 11i. Whether they are feeling it or not, I don’t know, but they certainly know about it. We made it clear in January that people were feeling pain with 11i. I know a lot of developers, and I know that most of the developers that I know want to produce good software. They get a real kick out of hearing, “You’ve solved my problem.” Certainly getting negative feedback gives them pain. I would suppose that in terms of the current situation, it’s in the press to a certain extent. I suppose it impacts Oracle in terms of sales. That’s not really my concern. I just want the product to improve. They do better when things are going well.

 

Were they scared to come here and hear the comments and mudslinging? They’ve had to do it before. I don’t think they were scared. They told me that having this many conferences is a problem for them in terms of bandwidth. That’s true to some extent. They also made a policy decision to support AppsWorld and not OAUG. I hope on Monday, we can have a discussion and tell them that this situation isn’t helping and come to another arrangement.

 

About extending desupport—that’s a great idea. We regularly talk about it and tell Support when it should be desupported. We will relay that messages to Oracle.

 

Karen Gilbert: If you feel strongly about extending support, they’ve got to hear from as many companies as possible with a business case as to why you need it. The board can also bring the issue to Oracle. Oracle has extended desupport several times. Have someone write a strong business case. Tell someone in Oracle senior management as to why you need it extended again. We can ask for it, but sometimes when we ask, we get back, “You’re just fifteen people. You don’t represent other customers; you don’t bring the voice of all customers.” So they need to hear from you as customers. Each individual customer who writes in will make a difference. Everyone is suffering from the economy, even Oracle.

 

Q: I participated in the initial survey. It was a strong tool at the time. In retrospect, it might be an opportune time to generate another survey, wherein you craft some models and let the membership vote again. Right now, I don’t know what you’re meeting on. I don’t know where you’re trying to get to. There may be value to a survey that outlines that. Once we respond to that, that’s a tremendous leverage.

A: Jeremy Young: At what point to do another survey has been in our mind. With the passing of time, people see what the impact of the change is. We’re all better informed now than then; we see now what it means. At some point, it may be appropriate to have another survey.

 

Going into the meeting with Oracle, we don’t really know what areas there may be options in. So it’s difficult to have a survey with a wide range of options until we have more of an idea of what the possible scenarios are. Going into that meeting, we will basically be guided by some principles that are most important. We fundamentally believe that we must maintain our independence. We want to make sure that we are able to deliver education and networking. These are fundamental to what our purpose is. If we feel that a proposal fundamentally goes against that, we won’t feel able to accept it.

 

If there is a proposal is completely in line with what the members have already told us, if we are convinced that we have enough information, we might go ahead and accept it.

 

It’s likely that there will be some situation in the middle, where we feel we need more input from the membership. It’s difficult to say, “Yes, there will be survey with three options.” We need to spend time with Oracle to narrow it down.

 

Q: Is a co-sourced conference an option?
A: Jeremy Young: Yes. For example, we had talked about trying a joint conference in Europe, and it didn’t happen. We’ll listen to any offer that Oracle makes. We have some ideas about what the possibilities are.

 

Q: I went to AppsWorld. We’re not going again, even if it’s in our area. It had no educational content at all. If Oracle wants to sell us stuff, have them send us their sales reps. We were also disappointed to hear Larry say that at AppsWorld, OAUG would get one day at the end. Can you give us suggestions on what to say to them? What about presenting several potential conference options and asking us which we prefer? Maybe you can rank them. It might give you some guidance.

A:  John Schindler: We’ve been getting some feedback on the conference email system. We’ve been collecting a lot of input on the different models. Everyone has an opinion, but there are some common themes. We will continue to collect this feedback.

 

Jeremy Young: One common theme is to have an OAUG in the fall and have an AppsWorld in the spring. People have suggested that we should carry on as is. There are a lot of different suggestions. In terms of having a survey, at the end of the conference, we’ll pull together the comments and look to see if there’s a consensus there that will help guide us in terms of where we get to.

 

Karen Gilbert: If we come up with some form letter, it’s not as effective as a letter in your own words. Oracle customers are passionate about Oracle and their own company. Saying so in your own words will be more effective than a canned form letter.

 

Comment from floor: We have the largest HR system in world. Oracle’s interest is working on that second billion in savings. Their reason for not being here is that it’s not economically viable for them to be here. I realize that us talking to them will have a greater effect. We talk to them regularly and loudly, and we’re committed to getting them back to this conference. The way you handled the Philadelphia conference and the survey is dead-on. We have to remain independent, but we also need them here to listened. You need to have two questions on web site--should Oracle be here, and should they extend desupport? We saw AppsWorld as circumventing OAUG, so we sent no one. Please realize I do not speak for the Secretary of Defense (Defense Personnel Center).

 

Q: We’ve been to a few conferences, and we’ve always gotten a lot out of Oracle here. I know Oracle has a Customer Advisory Board with key large customers from various industries. How do they stand? Are they trying to put some influence on Oracle?

A: John Schindler: Customer Advisory Board (CAB) participation is by invitation of Oracle only. Participants are hand-selected by Oracle. When you join one, you’re told that it’s not a bitch session. It’s used as an opportunity to improve the products. We don’t really know who the CAB members are. I work with Eaton, and we’re on five CABs. We know they’re there, but we haven’t leveraged them because they belong to Oracle.

 

Jeremy Young: That’s a good idea. A number of CAB members are also OAUG members. We could ask those OAUG members to express their views. From an OAUG point of view, I always ask people to express their opinion, whatever it is, even if you don’t agree with me.

 

Ray Payne: CABs are an Oracle-controlled thing, so those who are invited get their voice heard. At my company, we’d love to be on a CAB, but so far, no dice. What OAUG stands for is the people like us who don’t have that voice. OAUG is our collective voice.

 

Q: From their business perspective, my guess is that they want to appeal to prospective customers, not current customers. When we bought Oracle, they were very interested in us as a reference for new clients. Maybe that’s some clout that we have. If you’re not going to support us here, why should we give our time to you?

A: Karen Gilbert: When Oracle wrote their side of last year’s survey, we took verbatim what they wrote for their side. In their own words, Oracle said yes, you’re our current customers. 11i has a lot of new products in it. In order to attract more customers, they needed to hold a conference in which they could display the new products because the only people with detailed knowledge of the new products was Oracle. There’s just not enough installed base yet. OAUG has added new tracks as Oracle has added new products. We started just with financials, then added manufacturing, and recently added HR and CRM. Oracle felt the need to do some more showcasing of their newer products. We’re working with them to offer them more of an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone—a showcase and to meet with existing customers and help get to them to the next release.

 

Q: We’re all still reacting to AppsWorld. They’ve been running Open World for about five years now. Even with that, IOUG is still running their own conferences. Are you talking to other users groups to learn from them?

A: Karen Gilbert: The president of IOUG is in back. I think he’ll tell you that they don’t have a lot of Oracle participation in their spring event.

 

Rich Niemiec: Yes, we used to have more.

 

Karen Gilbert: They’re going through the same pain we are. We are in contact with other users groups. We’re all talking. When push comes to shove, we’re all Oracle customers.

 

Comment from floor: I appreciate that you want to save billions, but I don’t need you to spend all that money. I just want you to be here when I want to ask a question. I don’t need the all the flash.

 

Q: What were the attendance statistics from the past three conferences?

A: Jeremy Young: We have 4,000 here in Atlanta. In Hawaii, we had 4,500. In Philadelphia, we had about 7,200. We move our conferences around because we want to give the chance for people who live in different parts of the country to participate in a conference. We wouldn’t always have it on the west coast, even if it always meant more attendance. Indeed, that’s why our spring conference for 2002 is in Toronto. We wouldn’t normally expect to get as many in Hawaii. We don’t try and go wherever we think we can maximize our numbers. We move around to give plenty of people an opportunity. 4,500 for Hawaii was a fine number for us. We didn’t expect it to be bigger than Philadelphia. You can’t always just look at the raw numbers.

 

Q: Oracle has a divide and conquer approach. You talk to them, and they don’t see you as representative, and yet, you’re telling us we should individually write them. The problem is that until something grabs their attention, they won’t change. Nothing we are doing by direct contact is changing their sales cycle. When we were working with PeopleSoft, one of the things that got their attention was an open letter to their CEO. Is there any value in that? The only challenge of us writing individually is that it’s not a large enough group. OAUG could serve as a coordinating group.

A: Jeremy Young: There’s probably some merit that that idea. OAUG fills a gap in the community. That’s absolutely what OAUG is about--being a community when individually, we don’t have a strong voice. We want to make Oracle listen; if we band together, we could.

 

Q: I’ve heard that Oracle is planning a mini-AppsWorld in a local area in May. In fact, they’ve asked the local users group to publicize it for them. This would go against their rationale of one conference. Is this a trend to take over the geo groups?
A: Donna Rosentrater: I’ve experienced that also in my local group. They ask to do mini-sessions. Our membership likes to have that information, but we try to get them to incorporate that content into our agenda. I’d advise that you work with Oracle and see if they could come to your event. Having two different meetings in the same month would reduce participation; users would rather go to one place.

 

Q: I think the board is very supportive of trying to keep the relationship with Oracle amicable. As the local group coordinator, they asked me to use my listserver and send the announcement out of their training day. I’m really torn. The presentations that they’re offering are CRM, ERP, and Oracle Consulting. We all know it’s the end of their year, that Consulting is slow, so they’re going to make sales pitches. As soon as I saw AppsWorld, I though, “I’m not going to do this.” We meet at the Oracle building. They provide us with the facility and a/v equipment that allows our meeting. So I’m really torn. What do we do? Is this a trend? Is this divide and conquer? Do we need to stick together and say no, I won’t send to my members--since you weren’t there for us, why should I be there for you?  Or is that not the right direction—should we say, we’ll do this for you, but come back and be there for us?

A: Nancy Lane: This is against Larry’s strategy to not spend money.

 

Comment from the floor: Larry does all stock distributions within Oracle. He’s very involved in the business. If you don’t think Larry doesn’t know what’s going on at Oracle--he does.

 

Q: There are a lot of levels at Oracle that should be here. But I don’t want to ruin local relationships.

A: Jeremy Young: The guiding principle should be that if this is an activity which is of benefit to the user community to get information, then that’s good. We don’t have a problem with that. I think “mini AppsWorld” is probably just branding. It sounds like a one-day seminar.

 

Q: How can we use this to our advantage? How can we say, “we’re going to do this for you; what can you do for us?”

 

Q: I’m disappointed with the “we/they” mentality. It’s not productive. This conference is diminished by the lack of presence from Oracle. We can be independent and arrogant, but we are diminishing the value of the conference. I can’t afford to go to multiple conferences. I’m a user. I want information; don’t filter it. If there’s a mini-AppsWorld in my backyard, let me know about it. We’re going in the wrong direction here. The “independence” is getting in the way of what the users need. The small companies are without the resources. Every six months for an OAUG conference is excessive. I’m concerned that the statement, “we are independent” is getting in the way of the business we have to do. I have to deal with Oracle. It’s also good to network with users, but I won’t come to another OAUG without Oracle here. It’s essential that both of these things happen. Stop turning it into “we/they,” and fix it.

A: Jeremy Young: We are trying very hard for it not to be “we/they.” We have always told them that they are welcome to be here. About a week and a half ago, we told them there were still possibilities to participate here. It’s not a good situation. We are obviously working very hard to try and resolve it. I truly don’t feel we’re behaving in an arrogant way. Independence is important. As soon as you’re owned by someone, they can do what they want with you. You don’t have any more opportunity to try and influence them. I appreciate your feedback.

 

Q: I can’t communicate to them if they’re not here.

A: Jeremy Young: I’m feeling the same frustration.

 

Nancy Lane: It’s almost as if we’re getting to the point where you won’t get in the door if you don’t have the checkbook out. They’re saying, “You’re only a current customer; we’re after the juicy fruit. We don’t want to be where there are current customers. We want to put something on for new fish.” We have to keep current customer base in their eyes. We want them here. Everyone wants them here.

 

Ray Payne: I don’t think OAUG has been acting arrogantly. In fact, we’ve been too nice, if anything. There are things at AppsWorld that my organization needs, and there are things here that my organization needs. We send people to both, and no, we can’t continue that.

 

Q: We need to be more flexible. The negotiations are dysfunctional. As long as we approach it as “we/they,” it won’t get fixed. Like this idea of “new customers versus current customers”--I would bet a large percentage of sales to us.

A: Nancy Lane: If they wanted to sell to me, then why aren’t they here?

 

John Schindler: The negotiations haven’t been “dysfunctional,” they’ve been non-existent. We’ve been trying for over six months to set this up, and we’re just now getting there.

 

Karen Gilbert: When you go to a negotiating table, it’s unrealistic to expect to walk away with 100% of what you came in with. From the time they announced this, they have not offered one single concession. We have offered continuous concessions. We’re going back to meet with them at our expense to their home ground. We know how desperately we need them here, with a balanced view. Both sides have to play by those rules.

 

Jeremy Young: We will do our damndest to get you what you need.

 

Q: I am very supportive of communications from individual customers; we’re the voice. At the Utilities SIG, we think it would be effective to send out a joint communication as a SIG. It raises the voice in different way—from all the Utilities SIG customers. I’ll ensure that in our community, we strongly encourage Oracle to work with the OAUG board. They may not view the board as representative, but you were elected by the membership. I view you as representative of the entire organization, and my personal interest and my company’s interest are represented. Hopefully, that will be helpful. I wouldn’t even call what your doing a negotiation. You haven’t even gotten to that stage. Oracle is listening and not really prepared to negotiate yet. Do you expect that to change? Do you see signs that they are going to have more of an open dialogue, or do you anticipate a non-productive trip?

 

A: Jeremy Young: It has been difficult to arrange a meeting. On Monday, we will be doing that. That’s a step in the right direction. I know they’re busy; I am too. I don’t arrange meetings I don’t want to have, where I’m not willing to spend time. I assume that that’s true of them, and they wish to have the meeting, and we can make progress. Given than it has been some time, I’m not really sure what’s reasonable to expect. I think probably they wanted to get AppsWorld done, and then have the discussions. They’ve seen that people want Oracle here; we do, too. Our conference here hasn’t disappeared. With that knowledge, I would hope that we can make some progress. Whatever the outcome—you will know about it.

 

Q: Thanks for trying to fill in the areas where Oracle isn’t here (HODA, education). The ones I’ve attended are high quality. The one area that’s still missing is future directions. Nobody but Oracle can provide that, and I need to know it. So we can take that into consideration. I chose not to go to AppsWorld because I wanted to support OAUG. If this goes on, though, a lot of the membership will feel like they have to go to AppsWorld to get directions. I don’t get the feeling that the board understands what Oracle is trying to achieve, so how can you offer them anything?

A: Jeremy Young: With respect to what Oracle wants out of AppsWorld as opposed to here: my understanding is that OAUG events for them have been good closing events (the used to use Key Club to close business), and that they viewed the OAUG events as getting good feedback and discussions with users. But in terms of marketing, they were only reaching a portion of the market they wanted. There was a whole other market area of non-current Oracle users who they felt like they weren’t reaching. Every company has to market and make sure people know about the company. That’s the element that they weren’t getting at OAUG and needed AppsWorld for. From our point of view, with our focus on education, we understand that marketing is important, but we certainly feel that a marketing-dominated event does not provide what our members tell us they want. It’s too much futures, too much about what’s going to happen and not enough about dealing with practical issues of today. I think from my point of view, they’ve gone all the way to the other side on marketing. We’d like to convince them that you need both aspects. Oracle talks about how expensive it is for them. We can be very economic for them. We don’t need thousands of people here; we just need a few key people. I know that some developers have said that taking as many developers to OAUG was actually a boost to productivity. They met users who understood the product, and they went home motivated to deal with issues. Those are the kinds of people we want here. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable financial burden on Oracle. In terms of how we go ahead, we want to have a meeting of the minds. We want to convince them that this kind of event is important. Overwhelming it with marketing is not a good idea. They get all kinds of benefits from this kind of event.

 

Q: Maybe they can do a marketing event here. Non-members can come here. There’s a strong users comm.

A: OAUG: Some of Oracle’s greatest supporters are here.

 

Q: About maintain independence: This is the voice where we all join in and say, “we’ve nominated you to do that.” It’s a fundamental assumption that if I am on 10.7, I’m sticking with Oracle and can’t move to another app. I think Oracle thinks that customers are already there and will be forced to move. 11i has changed a lot. If Oracle doesn’t represent their products for us, they’re not looking at our needs. You need to stress independence. We are one unit, not divided individuals. If OAUG didn’t exist, the customer voice would be dominated by Oracle.